the building system needs improvments and add more semi automatic guns but i still love this game great concept and one of the best fps on itch.io great work
Thanks for the suggestion, but the game has been made in a way that only allows static maps. This means that destructible blocks are currently not possible. Might change this sometime in the future, but can't promise.
It would be better if only the weapons and the armored Armor had skins that were achieved with game achievements, Example: One Hundred Kill (You Unlocked The Golden Gun) that this weapon does not raise the characteristics such as speed penetration because it would damage the game, only I wanted to give my opinion.
Thank you! The game is certainly not abandoned, I just don't have enough time to work on it these days. I hope to catch up with the lost time within the summer!
Hola descargue el juego hoy y ok abre normal todo bien bien pero a la hora de jugar o ver el menú principal el mapa y los personajes se ven totalmente en blanco osea no se distingue nada revisen en la configuración de render en el motor gráfico de la unidad ya que creo que puede ser un error en los shaders y terxturas y sí es posiblea que los soldados y el mapa le permiten agregar colores osea una paleta de colores tanto en mapa como personaje aparte de que otros cascos o algo asi sinceramente estoy diciento esto a ciegas por que no he podido jugar ya que estaba en youtube y me encontraré en este juego así como decidiendo descargarlo pero con ese error no creo que pueda: | saludos desde Venezuela
¡Lo siento por la respuesta tardía! No puedo encontrar lo que está causando su problema, por desgracia. Por favor, espera la próxima actualización del juego, puede que te funcione mejor.
¡Eso es muy extraño! Intenta eliminar y descargar el juego de nuevo. También elimine la carpeta "Stick Veterans" en "AppData / LocalLow / Junkbytes" y ejecute el juego nuevamente.
To be a free and multiplayer game the truth is wonderful, I would give all the money I had in my hand but I am from Venezuela, and I hope to give my support so that the world knows this great game I HOPE ALSO KEEP IT LIVE AND DO NOT LEAVE IT BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THE BEST!
Hi! As long as you upload them using "Upload and Publish" from the map editor toolbar, they will be available from the map repository for all updates. The updates will remain backwards compatible.
Just a question. This game hasn't been updated in a long time and i was just wondering if like your just moving aside the project for awhile because of work or for some other reason? I don't mind what you say, its just that this game seems "Abandoned"
Oh boy, reading comments like this hurts me even more for neglecting this game :'(
It's a little bit of both, really. Work and other obligations take way too much of my time.
But what I am working on now is also part of the reason. Rewriting the multiplayer mechanism keeps proving to be way harder than I expected. I am scouring my code for parts that I must rewrite, testing my changes is tough, mistakes are hard to debug, and I am essentially at a point where I feel I am re-doing old work in a more complex way, only to have moderate satisfaction when I'm done. All this takes away the fun part in developing the game.
Obviously, the game is not "abandoned". What I intend to do, is to finish up all the stuff I've started so far (no starting on new features anymore), publish a cumulative update, and then take a much needed break from SV to work on other projects. I am considering cleaning the code and putting it on GitHub, so maybe other people will contribute on the game too.
TL;DR game is not abandoned, but progressing really slow.
Sorry to keep you guys waiting, and thank you for sticking along. Your feedback is really what keeps me working on the game.
Hi, i tried this on the latest Ubuntu studio distro with a generic gamepad and couldn't make it work in 2d nor 3d. Any suggestions? Great game, you guys did a great job!
interactive things like doors, lava, water and stationary turrets would be a nice addition. i would also say vehicle but that might ruin the fast pace, unluss they were just 4-wheelers or something
Thanks for the suggestion, these would probably be nice! At the moment I have multiplayer revamping as a priority, afterwards I will see how feasible each of these additions is.
I mean atleast it was not 351H like it first said. Wew lads. Also this game needs discord If you want I can set one up, DM you the invite, and transfer the owner to you.
Some of these can be done, a few can't, and some need too much effort to be worth it. I don't want to make a huge answer again, so I won't elaborate.
Long story short, some of the proposed features can be done, and hopefully will. But I am currently working on other things, and don't want to postpone them, so it will be on a later update.
Discord sounds good, but I have never used it before, so I need some time to check it out myself first. I don't want another responsibility in my head without being ready for it.
Again, thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them.
I request a property system for items, and some more game rules. If these are put it in should make it easier to make the map I wanna be able to make //game rules
-cant respawn: make it so you cant respawn after death
-max bots: change how many bots are allowed in a match (SinglePlayer matches only) I know its pretty easy to add in I was able to mod it in once.
-gravity: I always ask for this because I feel it would greatly benifit more realsitc type maps where I dont want the player to easily jump up and get outside the map or force me to make huge towers to prevent people from getting somewhere they shouldn't be.
//properties
-cant respawn: make it so items cant be regenerated after being taken
-cant collide: players can go through it //weapons
All these features make me anxious thinking of the amount of work they need :) mostly testing, that is.
But it's nice to see you are so dedicated.
Question about "game rules": do you actually mean map rules? Because game rules are customizable by the player, and I think you want map-specific uncustomizable rules.
Game rules / can't respawn: you mean essentially making a "last man standing" mode?
Game rules / max bots: I'd rather not force such limits. Isn't it better to have it in the map name like others do? E.g. "My map [max 8 players]".
Game rules / gravity: I may add it I guess, along with the "jump speed" which has been requested again. I still don't think it's a good idea though.
Properties / can't respawn: you mean objects that are only for the first player to reach them? Or objects that can be taken only once per player?
A last man standing mode is what im talking about.
For one of the maps I wanna make I want the concept to be a sort of battle royale type map where a set of 50 or 100 players start in random locations trying to hunt eachother down
My main gripe with the jump speed/height is that I think its set way too high. I honestly think that if we are able to control things like spawn delay we should be able to mess with these settings
Yes
I've added some other additions to my original post. The ideas came to me while I was making a map.
Could you add terrain in maps i would love to make maps with terrain and could you add a better camra in the map maker too. please do if can , i would love it!
Terrain in maps is an idea that I hope to add in the game, but it will be a while until it happens. As for the camera, how do you think it could be improved?
when i load maps in editor upate them the camra is in an akward postion and hardto move /is slow with realy big maps. could you make like a camera mode were you use WASD to move camera and push SHIFT to make camera faster in some way also use mouse to look camera around like in the spectate mode in Game while playing? Thank you.
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. It's been requested before, and unfortunately it's not easy to make. It would require changing a lot of fundamental mechanisms in the game (remake weapon models, change current soldier animation, ensure nothing breaks the AI or the multiplayer etc).
So I probably won't make it because it is too much trouble for the end result. Sorry.
Thanks for the suggestions! I already intend to add some of these, possibly in the next update.
Unfortunately, it's hard to add a melee weapon. It's a problem to use in multiplayer with laggy connections, and most importantly it's hard to adapt the AI (teach them how to use it, teach them to dodge it etc)
Hey so uhh im wondering, does this have controller support on it?? Im looking forward to play this,looks awesome and also does it have splitscreen?? Me and my brother wanted to play together and if it does, does it support dualshock 4?? and if it doesnt, can you add it in the next update??? Thx
Gamepads are supported, splitscreen is available for 2D only. No gamepad vibration unfortunately, and I probably won't be able to implement it because of Unity limitations, sorry.
I tried running it as a normal user and it works fine. There are no errors and the performance are similar on both cases.
I (and most Linux users) don't want running executables as the root user because (1) it can possibly be a security threat from the program itself or an undiscovered exploit, (2) it requires typing the user's password and kinda annoying for just running a game, and (3) if a user doesn't have `gksudo` installed (i.e. like Windows' UAC prompt) , they need to pull up a terminal which is annoying above that you also need to do #2. And it's much easier to just double-click the executable file than on a terminal
Great game indeed! Even Linux to Windows multiplayer works!
Not preferring to use sudo is completely understandable. I mentioned using it to be sure it works fine, but truth is I should test the requirement when releasing a version. It's just that it takes time :(
Also good to know cross-platform networking works. I used low-level networking so I would expect it to, but haven't really tested it.
Hey junkbytes can you add a setting that makes it how high the AI and the player can jump because I hate having my enemy jump all over the place when trying to kill them.
This has been mentioned before as a suggestion, however it is a lot harder to make than it sounds :(
I recommend playing on open large maps, such as "D-day" maps, as the bots jump less there. You can also use Caps Lock / F2 which toggles slow motion.
Long story:
Bots need AI waypoints for each map to be able to navigate around it. "waypoints" are essentially paths from/to numerous points on the map.
When you "Build AI waypoints" for a map in the map editor, what really happens is that dummy soldiers try to traverse each of these paths (in about x1000 real-time). When the process is complete, each path is marked as valid depending on whether the soldier managed to reach its end.
The problem with the above process is that the test must be done with the same stats as it is done in-game. This means that jump speed, walk speed and gravity must be constant. Otherwise, the bots will be unable to guess whether a path is crossable with their new stats.
That would be nice to have, but is hard to fit in the current game's design :/
Battle royale would require building huge maps, which the game currently doesn't have.
And the second and most important problem is the AI not being easily adaptable. It will have trouble playing on such large maps, and will generally not work well with this gamemode without tons of work.
As such, I would rather put this time and effort into making less demanding improvements on the game.
Sure, it would be possible at that point, but please understand it would be a very long time until this happens.
As the game has become a larger project now, one disadvantage of this is that it takes me quite a while to get new things added, so progress can be very slow.
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the building system needs improvments and add more semi automatic guns but i still love this game great concept and one of the best fps on itch.io great work
Thank you, I appreciate your praise, and constructive criticism is welcome!
I certainly intend to add more weapons. As for the map editor, what would you recommend improving?
hello i really injoyed this game but can you make a campaign please
Hello, that's a good idea and I have considered it, but it needs too much time and work which I am unable to devote.
I barely have time to finish the currently pending update.
Hopefully I will have more time for it in the future, but it's unlikely as of yet.
hello can you pls add colours to the men so me and my friends can joke around
Not a bad idea actually, I'll consider adding it! Only for Free-for-all mode though!
Please remember: I can't fix bugs if you don't report them! Map uploading had stopped working, now it's fixed, but I had no idea this was happening!
Very fun!
Happy to hear you liked it! :)
Seria genial que agregaran 1 bloque de Cristal, que se pueda romper con varios disparos. Así se pueden crear mejores mapas.
Thanks for the suggestion, but the game has been made in a way that only allows static maps. This means that destructible blocks are currently not possible. Might change this sometime in the future, but can't promise.
Thank you, I love the game everything is perfect, I hope that one day you can add the jejejejeje crystals.
PD: I'm your fan xd
I'm flattered! Thanks for the understanding and for the constructive feedback!
I was search a funny game and i find your game , i had big fun Thanks!
Glad you liked it! Thanks for the feedback!
very fun game could add a menu to customize your character.
Thanks for the kind words and the suggestion! I have thought of that too, but I have prioritized other important work that the game needs atm.
It would be better if only the weapons and the armored Armor had skins that were achieved with game achievements, Example: One Hundred Kill (You Unlocked The Golden Gun) that this weapon does not raise the characteristics such as speed penetration because it would damage the game, only I wanted to give my opinion.
@KingMadness thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately adding statistics / achievements is not feasible for the near future, it takes too much work!
Take your time for now focus on the basics and then you improve it, try not to get distracted by many suggestions and do everything in order. ;)
GOOD game! add new feature multiplayer please! dont abandoned!
Thank you! The game is certainly not abandoned, I just don't have enough time to work on it these days. I hope to catch up with the lost time within the summer!
excellent game
Thank you! Working on it! :)
Hola descargue el juego hoy y ok abre normal todo bien bien pero a la hora de jugar o ver el menú principal el mapa y los personajes se ven totalmente en blanco osea no se distingue nada revisen en la configuración de render en el motor gráfico de la unidad ya que creo que puede ser un error en los shaders y terxturas y sí es posiblea que los soldados y el mapa le permiten agregar colores osea una paleta de colores tanto en mapa como personaje aparte de que otros cascos o algo asi sinceramente estoy diciento esto a ciegas por que no he podido jugar ya que estaba en youtube y me encontraré en este juego así como decidiendo descargarlo pero con ese error no creo que pueda: | saludos desde Venezuela
¡Eso es muy malo! ¿Qué Windows tienes? Si juegas otros juegos de Unity, ¿funcionan bien?
tengo windows 7 y otros juegos de unity y unreal engine corren bien
¡Lo siento por la respuesta tardía! No puedo encontrar lo que está causando su problema, por desgracia. Por favor, espera la próxima actualización del juego, puede que te funcione mejor.
Hola, ayer descargue el juego y pude jugarlo bien, pero luego lo cerre para cambiarle los graficos y ahora me sale esto cada vez que lo abro:
.Ademas, fui a la carpeta de Crashes y no aparece nada:
Ayuda por favor, el juego es bastante entretenido!
¡Eso es muy extraño! Intenta eliminar y descargar el juego de nuevo. También elimine la carpeta "Stick Veterans" en "AppData / LocalLow / Junkbytes" y ejecute el juego nuevamente.
Por favor, hágamelo saber si esto funcionó!
Ya lo había hecho varias veces y aparece lo mismo:
Quiero saber si un archivo llamado "output_log" tiene que ver, ya que dice que el archivo "d3d11" fallo en crear las texturas 2D
Lo siento por la respuesta tardía! Te daré algunas instrucciones en inglés, ya que no puedo traducirlas correctamente.
1: right-click on Stickveterans.exe and choose "Create shortcut".
2: right-click on the new shortcut and click "Properties".
3: add the text "-force-glcore" in the end of the "Target" field. Click "OK" and then double-click the shortcut.
I hope this works! Let me know otherwise!
Me aparece lo siguiente:
Intenta jugar otros juegos de Unity, ¿funcionan bien? Además, por favor actualice DirectX desde aquí:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35
amigo por favor ayúdame el juego me da error me sale esto
y me envía a esta carpeta
ayúdame quiero jugar tu juego es increible
¡Por favor copie y pegue el contenido del archivo "error" en un comentario, o envíelo a admin@junkbytes.com! ¡Gracias!
Thank you, I appreciate your support! Still actively working on the game! :)
Im currently working on some maps, will they carry over into the update or would i have to publish them?
Hi! As long as you upload them using "Upload and Publish" from the map editor toolbar, they will be available from the map repository for all updates. The updates will remain backwards compatible.
Hi. I made this two songs from the game.
Theme : http://www.mediafire.com/file/dp9va659ssd3kyc/Stick+Veterans+Theme+Remix.mp3
Game :
http://www.mediafire.com/file/2mnunnj0wgyn15k/Stick_Veterans_Game_Remix.mp3
PS : I really love this game. Keep up the good work!
Hi, amazing songs, I am impressed! I showed your theme remix to the maker of the original and he really liked it too!
Is it okay with you if I use the songs for the next SV release? I'll credit your name on the title screen, of course.
Yes sure.
Also thank you.
It would give the game a good touch.
Just a question. This game hasn't been updated in a long time and i was just wondering if like your just moving aside the project for awhile because of work or for some other reason? I don't mind what you say, its just that this game seems "Abandoned"
Also the game still great!
Oh boy, reading comments like this hurts me even more for neglecting this game :'(
It's a little bit of both, really. Work and other obligations take way too much of my time.
But what I am working on now is also part of the reason. Rewriting the multiplayer mechanism keeps proving to be way harder than I expected. I am scouring my code for parts that I must rewrite, testing my changes is tough, mistakes are hard to debug, and I am essentially at a point where I feel I am re-doing old work in a more complex way, only to have moderate satisfaction when I'm done. All this takes away the fun part in developing the game.
Obviously, the game is not "abandoned". What I intend to do, is to finish up all the stuff I've started so far (no starting on new features anymore), publish a cumulative update, and then take a much needed break from SV to work on other projects. I am considering cleaning the code and putting it on GitHub, so maybe other people will contribute on the game too.
TL;DR game is not abandoned, but progressing really slow.
Sorry to keep you guys waiting, and thank you for sticking along. Your feedback is really what keeps me working on the game.
Hi, i tried this on the latest Ubuntu studio distro with a generic gamepad and couldn't make it work in 2d nor 3d. Any suggestions? Great game, you guys did a great job!
That's weird :/ I'll try to download the distro and test it today, I'll let you know once I figure it out. Thanks for reporting the problem!
After a long search, this is the easiest solution I could find: use gamepad-tool from http://generalarcade.com/gamepadtool/
See also this post:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1059666/gamepad-using-xboxdrv-help-needed
Let me know if you run into any problems!
I got some new weapons idea you may add.
- AUG a1 with scope
- a IMI Galil
- UZI
- Karabiner 98
-PP-19
-M60
-hk69 grenade launcher
just some guns you may for a update.
Good suggestions, thanks! Don't know which guns I'll add next, but I will consider these!
interactive things like doors, lava, water and stationary turrets would be a nice addition. i would also say vehicle but that might ruin the fast pace, unluss they were just 4-wheelers or something
Thanks for the suggestion, these would probably be nice! At the moment I have multiplayer revamping as a priority, afterwards I will see how feasible each of these additions is.
maybe you should consider adding cheats or secrets;)
sorry, I somehow didn't see this comment at first.
I will think about it! I'm currently prioritizing main content rather than hidden :)
I mean atleast it was not 351H like it first said. Wew lads. Also this game needs discord If you want I can set one up, DM you the invite, and transfer the owner to you.
A lot more suggestions than I can handle :)
Some of these can be done, a few can't, and some need too much effort to be worth it. I don't want to make a huge answer again, so I won't elaborate.
Long story short, some of the proposed features can be done, and hopefully will. But I am currently working on other things, and don't want to postpone them, so it will be on a later update.
Discord sounds good, but I have never used it before, so I need some time to check it out myself first. I don't want another responsibility in my head without being ready for it.
Again, thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them.
I request a property system for items, and some more game rules. If these are put it in should make it easier to make the map I wanna be able to make
//game rules
-cant respawn: make it so you cant respawn after death
-max bots: change how many bots are allowed in a match (SinglePlayer matches only) I know its pretty easy to add in I was able to mod it in once.
-gravity: I always ask for this because I feel it would greatly benifit more realsitc type maps where I dont want the player to easily jump up and get outside the map or force me to make huge towers to prevent people from getting somewhere they shouldn't be.
//properties
-cant respawn: make it so items cant be regenerated after being taken
-cant collide: players can go through it
//weapons
-melee
All these features make me anxious thinking of the amount of work they need :) mostly testing, that is.
But it's nice to see you are so dedicated.
I've added some other additions to my original post. The ideas came to me while I was making a map.
Thanks for your time
this should be great, for there is so few good games like PUBG in offline mode.
Today i found my old laptop and i realized i have not played this game in 4 months but there has not been an update why ;-;.
Actually update 1.1 was released 46 days ago :)
Other than that, I'm working on an update but I don't know when it will be ready.
Could you add terrain in maps i would love to make maps with terrain and could you add a better camra in the map maker too. please do if can , i would love it!
Terrain in maps is an idea that I hope to add in the game, but it will be a while until it happens. As for the camera, how do you think it could be improved?
when i load maps in editor upate them the camra is in an akward postion and hardto move /is slow with realy big maps. could you make like a camera mode were you use WASD to move camera and push SHIFT to make camera faster in some way also use mouse to look camera around like in the spectate mode in Game while playing? Thank you.
I don't think this would be a practical method for map editor since you usually need more accurate movement to design properly.
I could add it as a temporary measure, e.g. to only use spectator camera if you hold down middle mouse button.
I'll give it a try and add it to the next release if it is easy to use.
Hey junkbytes I think it would be cool if you added reload animations for the weapons.
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. It's been requested before, and unfortunately it's not easy to make. It would require changing a lot of fundamental mechanisms in the game (remake weapon models, change current soldier animation, ensure nothing breaks the AI or the multiplayer etc).
So I probably won't make it because it is too much trouble for the end result. Sorry.
Hey junkbytes here is a list of 10 weapons I think you should add to stick veterans.
1: Revolver.
2: Double Barrel Shotgun.
3: Burst Assault Rifle.
4: Grenade launcher.
5: Semi Auto Sniper.
6: Bolt Action Rifle.
7: Tommy Gun.
8: Light Machine Gun.
9: Ray Gun.
10: Melee Weapon???????????.
Thanks for the suggestions! I already intend to add some of these, possibly in the next update.
Unfortunately, it's hard to add a melee weapon. It's a problem to use in multiplayer with laggy connections, and most importantly it's hard to adapt the AI (teach them how to use it, teach them to dodge it etc)
how do you change the y axis you are building on?
Use ctrl + mouse wheel to move along y axis. Or, ctrl + shift + mouse wheel to move faster.
thanks
Hey so uhh im wondering, does this have controller support on it?? Im looking forward to play this,looks awesome and also does it have splitscreen?? Me and my brother wanted to play together and if it does, does it support dualshock 4?? and if it doesnt, can you add it in the next update??? Thx
Gamepads are supported, splitscreen is available for 2D only. No gamepad vibration unfortunately, and I probably won't be able to implement it because of Unity limitations, sorry.
Is it really necessary to run the game with superuser priveleges? (i.e. sudo)
To be honest I haven't tested the latest versions of the game on Linux :/
if you see no problems when running as a normal user, then it shouldn't be necessary.
Or perhaps you are asking because you have no su privileges on your account? If so, I can test it and let you know.
I tried running it as a normal user and it works fine. There are no errors and the performance are similar on both cases.
I (and most Linux users) don't want running executables as the root user because (1) it can possibly be a security threat from the program itself or an undiscovered exploit, (2) it requires typing the user's password and kinda annoying for just running a game, and (3) if a user doesn't have `gksudo` installed (i.e. like Windows' UAC prompt) , they need to pull up a terminal which is annoying above that you also need to do #2. And it's much easier to just double-click the executable file than on a terminal
Great game indeed! Even Linux to Windows multiplayer works!
Thanks a lot for testing and letting me know!
Not preferring to use sudo is completely understandable. I mentioned using it to be sure it works fine, but truth is I should test the requirement when releasing a version. It's just that it takes time :(
Also good to know cross-platform networking works. I used low-level networking so I would expect it to, but haven't really tested it.
JUNKBYTES there is a stick veterans rip off on itch.io by Galaxis_Master, we most do something about this!!!
Thanks for letting me know! I have reported the issue to itch.io.
Hey junkbytes can you add a setting that makes it how high the AI and the player can jump because I hate having my enemy jump all over the place when trying to kill them.
This has been mentioned before as a suggestion, however it is a lot harder to make than it sounds :(
I recommend playing on open large maps, such as "D-day" maps, as the bots jump less there. You can also use Caps Lock / F2 which toggles slow motion.
Long story:
Bots need AI waypoints for each map to be able to navigate around it. "waypoints" are essentially paths from/to numerous points on the map.
When you "Build AI waypoints" for a map in the map editor, what really happens is that dummy soldiers try to traverse each of these paths (in about x1000 real-time). When the process is complete, each path is marked as valid depending on whether the soldier managed to reach its end.
The problem with the above process is that the test must be done with the same stats as it is done in-game. This means that jump speed, walk speed and gravity must be constant. Otherwise, the bots will be unable to guess whether a path is crossable with their new stats.
So it can't really be done. Sorry :(
It's ok
Thanks for the new update not much was added but I did like things like the new grenades and the body armor.
Thanks! Unfortunately, adding new features takes time, so I have to do them a few at a time.
I don't understand a word :) but thanks for making the video!
i think that an ads system would make the game greater
From what I've seen so far, revenue from ads is rather small. I wouldn't mind that, but I don't think it's worth compared to keeping the game clean.
Besides, some people have occasionally been kind enough to make small donations by themselves.
Thanks for the suggestion though!
when i said ads i meant aim down sights not advertisements sorry for not specifying
Oh, that :) I could add it as a feature then. If I see it's easy to make, I might include it in the next update.
thank you it would be a great improvement
I LOVE THE NEW UPDATE!!! Thx!
Thanks for always being so supportive! :)
hi nice game i really like it
Happy to hear it! New version is being uploaded right now!
Hey junkbytes went is the next update? it has been a while sense you last updated this game.
I was just about to say the same question (Sorry for bugging you alot lately)
Sorry for the delay! I'm doing my best to get an update ready by next weekend :)
That would be nice to have, but is hard to fit in the current game's design :/
Battle royale would require building huge maps, which the game currently doesn't have.
And the second and most important problem is the AI not being easily adaptable. It will have trouble playing on such large maps, and will generally not work well with this gamemode without tons of work.
As such, I would rather put this time and effort into making less demanding improvements on the game.
Sure, it would be possible at that point, but please understand it would be a very long time until this happens.
As the game has become a larger project now, one disadvantage of this is that it takes me quite a while to get new things added, so progress can be very slow.